[Eorzea]

In a recent Twitter rant, FFXIV producer Hiromichi Tanaka claims that foreign sites are full of false rumors and wild ideas in regard to the fatigue system, which [no doubt] originate(d) from poorly pieced-together/translated bits of information [from GAMESCOM]. Japanese sites then take this information and further falsify it through mistranslation.

Hiromichi Tanaka said:

海外サイトはデマが多い。単語組み合わせて、発言を捏造。それをさらに異訳する日本サイト。疲労度云々は完全に原型とどめてないし勝手な妄想も追加されとる。

Such speculations likely stem from this interview with Famitsu in which FFXIV director Nobuaki Komoto rather ambiguously replied when asked about fatigue. What he did say, however, is that people who are able to play for long periods of time should try playing a variety of classes because when you change your class, the fatigue system has no effect.

Nobuaki Komoto said:

長時間遊ばれる方には、ぜひいろいろなクラスで遊んでみてほしいですね。クラスを変えた場合は、疲労度などは影響しません...

The confusing thing is that Nobuaki Komoto has apparently gone on to post some clarification on the Japanese beta test site in which he states that fatigue will persist regardless of changing classes:

Nobuaki Komoto (Translation) said:

Within the first eight hours of play, you can earn 100% experience. The seven hour period following will see your possible experience gradually approach zero.

This system is on a weekly timer. After a week has passed since you began skilling that particular weapon, the timer will reset. It will start anew when you skill up again.

Any experience earned past that point is saved as "surplus." There is surplus for each class, and if you begin to see it please consider playing another class and adjust accordingly.

However, experience points are not specific to any class and therefore the decrease in experience points is not affected by changing classes.

...

This all is still currently under development, and we have plans to make the limit more palatable in answer to all the tester feedback we received concerning this. In particular we would like to address the speed with which experience begins to drop off and are already looking into it.

Also, since experience points fatigue carries over despite changing weapons, we plan to make it not so harsh.

At the very least, we promise to not have people hitting these limits in a short period of time, such as during the start of beta phase 3.

* Read his entire post.


Unfortunately, this explanation still leaves a lot to be desired. Can Tanaka really blame fans (and foreign sites in particular) for trying to piece together information when the details Komoto have posted (which currently only appear on the Japanese beta test site by the way) conflict with what he said at GAMESCOM? Not to mention that his explanation of the fatigue system is still rather unclear.



The good thing is that at least the development team is aware of the uproar this has caused and as a result will likely be making some adjustments between now and release.

[Krisfer]

I guess what he means is even though you change your class to avoid the penalty you will still be penalized for your characters physical level. So class level will raise but physical level will not after a certain time. So, can you raise your class level above your physical level? I would guess you couldn't.

Also, I think that a weekly timer is a bit much. After 8 hours of play I will start to lose experience. I consider myself a casual player. I have work and kids and general stuff to do around the house, so I wont be playing that much, but even I know I'm going to be hitting the 8 hour mark in a week. I figure once the kids go to bed I'll probably play a few hours a night. I think this is crazy. They're trying too hard to make us play the way they want us to. If they keep putting restrictions like this, no one is going to want to play. The whole point of the armory system was for everyone to play the way they wanted to, atleast that's the way I took it.

[Gloon]

I seriously hope they change it.... otherwise this game is going to flop, sadly..

[Calladan]

I never noticed either Fatigue or Surplus, while playing in beta, but I have been reading a lot about it. Still not sure how it works or is suppose to work, and I doubt we will get a proper explanation till sometime into Open Beta. By restricting how long a person can play is going to result in causing an uproar. None of the statements out of SE seem to really clarify the issue, and it is going to continue to be a point of discussion.

[bd4]

they say at the 8 hour mark it starts till it hits zero but the main question the rate it decreases. if at 8 hours it goes from 100 to 99 and by 15 hours its at 95 then it wouldn't be noticed by many players. before i go into a nerd rage im going to wait for that bit of info

[Eorzea]

It says that after the eight-hour mark it will only take seven more hours for your earned experience to reach 0.

[Krisfer]

Bring on the nerd rage, lol

[Dietriot]

Krisfer, on Aug 25, 2010 - 8:09 PM, said:

Bring on the nerd rage, lol

Yup.. The English are pissed.

I could live with it if it were 8 hours per class per day

Another question: Does the timer still count if I'm just standing in town holding or even just wearing my weapon?
(I know noone has that answer but it's just a though)

[munjahaidate]

I really don't see the problem with this at all. I think it's admirable that SE are encouraging people to fully experience all aspects of the game. How many times have we seen people bemoaning new MMOs after a couple of months "because there's nothing to do"? Obviously, the main reason that there's nothing to do is that they've taken time off work (work? ooh there's a dirty word!), hammered the game relentlessly 24/7 whilst killing the same group of 24 lizards/bees/artichokes.

Is it so bad that SE are trying to encourage a well rounded experience within their game environment? It's the little things that give an MMO longevity and if players miss the nuances that make any game special in their desire to "get to the end" then so be it. For me SE are considering a bold move and to shape their player base. It must be frustrating for game developers when players don't actually see 2/3 of the game content you've produced. They want you to see the full game, so take that opportunity.

[Myst]

Well 8 hours a day? That's fine I only have like a 4 hour block between my classes out of which I'll probably spend at least an hour or two actually playing the game. I think this is one of those things I [personally] would like to test out to understand. As reading just does nothing for me [ at least on the topic of these MMO statics and such ]

[Saeryne]

Question is 8 hours a day..will anyone actually spend 8 hours a day playing the same job...I cant see it happening enough to make changes for it. This would be ok in my opinion.

8 hours a week...If you think about it, the game is advertised as playing and mixing jobs as you go, NOT playing one single class to the end then starting again at the beginning.

My query is..

If you spent say 2 hours as a warrior, then you found a load of mats and you went harvest. Does the fatique on the warrior start again? Or will the 8 hours you spend on warrior continue for that week build up when you change back after harvesting?

As far as I understand it on a 'typical' trip out - you can play Thaum and hit some thing, switch to harvester as you come across some ocra, go back to Thaum to hit more stuff, then when you get back home you switch to tailoring.

From how I understood it, this would mean you wouldnt have to worry about fatique as you were switching.

[Krisfer]

I see what your saying Saeryne. Because your switching jobs all the time and not playing just one job for 8 hours straight, most of us wont have to worry as much about the penalty. But we will still get the penalty on our physical level after 8 hours no matter what. I guess this keeps our physical level from getting crazy high compared to our job level.

This is the most I've posted in a long time, lol. This has me all worked up.

[Girseo]

Eorzea, on Aug 25, 2010 - 2:49 PM, said:

Can Tanaka really blame fans (and foreign sites in particular) for trying to piece together information when the details Komoto have posted (which currently only appear on the Japanese beta test site by the way) conflict with what he said at GAMESCOM?

Well, imo the thing is,... making statements over something that's just being tested, they want to try and develop in order to give the player not only the chance, but all oportunity to discover the game in all it's amplitude (making it imo more enjoyable and giving us the chance to get the needed knowledge about the game) would be foolish. Only achieving discontent through rumors that disapoint players and therefore disapointing and frustrating people that is hard at work to make it the best online game they can posibly make. So yes, i can imagine Mr. Tanaka would have liked it otherway. he would have spected to have the pros and cons being evaluated through testing, because that's what they are bussy now at, and they need and apreciate the feedback in order to come up with improvement at launch instead of rumors being released making people think the opposite of what they are triying. But well sometimes people just hear what the want to hear, and understand not that sometimes it's not easy to find balance.
It takes a lot of work to make a new thing good, but you are never done making it perfect. And there are few people that understand that, i see it everyday at my work. And there is little of no consideration to the effort some people may have been putting into making something work for so many different kinds of people.
As this whole thing may have been blown out of proportion, again Yes, i can imagine they are even more disapointed that some players.
And ofc they do not want to explain every detail of the game before it's out? You would know everything even before you play it... What about the fun of learning, the fun and joy of acomplishment and understanding the game???
Just my opinion.

[Eorzea]

You make many good points, Girseo. I just didn't appreciate Tanaka placing the majority of the blame on "foreign" sites when Japanese sites were just as guilty of such speculations and concerns. It's a common trend in Japan to quickly point fingers at foreigners when something goes wrong, but I'll save that for another time.

Here is the official post from Komoto on the English beta test site:

Nobuaki Komoto said:

Once again, we would like to thank you all for your participation and support during the Closed Beta. We will continue to take your valuable feedback into consideration as we develop the game during Open Beta and even beyond the official release.

Now I would like to take a moment to respond to the many questions and opinions regarding the manner in and rates at which experience and skill points are obtained in Beta 3.

Firstly, the concept for FINAL FANTASY XIV was to design a system of character progression that offers meaningful advancement for those with limited time to dedicate to playing. We did not want to create a game that forced people to play for hours on end to see their efforts rewarded. To that end, in addition to the Guardian's Aspect and guildleve systems, we introduced a means of apportioning swifter advancement to shorter periods of play.

In order to achieve this balance, we calculated a value for the amount of skill or experience points that could be earned in a one-hour period. This theoretical value represents an hour spent engaged solely in combat, levequests, or any other activities that earn skill or experience points, and sets a threshold delimiting how many of these points can be earned in a period of play.

Based on this, we have implemented a “threshold value” concept. These thresholds are regulated by a one-week timer that begins counting down the instant you earn skill/experience points. After a week has passed, the thresholds will reset, and the moment skill/experience points are earned again, the timer begins counting down anew.

For the first eight thresholds during this week-long period, players will receive skill/experience points at the maximum rate possible. The actual amount of time spent reaching these thresholds is not significant. That is to say, a player who exceeds eight hours of gameplay will still be rewarded the maximum amount of skill/experience points, so long as the total amount earned is below the eighth threshold value. For the subsequent seven thresholds, players will earn skill/experience points at a gradually decreasing rate, eventually reaching a rate of zero.

It is worth noting, however, that the reduced rate will also gradually recover while players are engaged in activities that do not yield skill/experience points. In this manner, it is possible for the threshold value to reset completely, even before the completion of the one-week timer.

Any skill points earned in excess of the threshold maximum—that is, at a rate of zero—will be stored as "bonus skill points." These are specific to each class, so players limited to earning bonus skill points still have the freedom to change classes and begin earning skill points again at the maximum rate, allowing their reduced skill rates to recover in the meantime.

The experience point threshold, however, is unrelated to class, and switching classes will have no effect on the decreasing rate of earnable experience.

This is how the progression system currently works.

This system was not introduced in Beta 3, but has been in place since the beginning of beta testing. There are several reasons why many people believe that these features were only recently implemented:

- Leading into Beta 3, operation hours were extended, making it possible to play more often during the span of a week.
- To encourage players to form guidleve parties in Beta 3, skill and experience point rewards for guildleves were significantly increased.
- The process that reduced the amount of skill/experience points awarded for weak enemies attacking in groups was unintentionally removed at the start of Beta 3. (This issue has been addressed.)

That last reason in particular was the biggest cause for players running up against the threshold penalty, with characters earning far more skill/experience points than we anticipated. We also faced an issue where we were simultaneously unable to adjust the amount earned for guildleves as well as the effects of crossing each threshold.

We sincerely apologize for the lack of explanation and our failure to make the necessary adjustments in the game.

The threshold values are being reexamined, and we plan to further adjust the different rates of earnable points based on feedback from our testers. One of the top issues we are looking at right now is fixing the excessively rapid drop after crossing the eighth threshold. We also plan to improve experience point reduction rates, even more so than for skill points, considering the threshold is unaffected when changing class.

At the very least, we can promise that players won't be running into the threshold penalty in the same short time span as they did in the beginning of Beta 3.

We would like to take this opportunity to also explain the following issues.

The diminishing results experienced during gathering are a function related to that class alone, and have no connection to this progression system. We are in the process of adjusting this system, and plan to make changes based on tester feedback.

We are currently in the process of considering the means in which bonus skill points can be used. There have been suggestions for various types of incentives, but as encouraging people to play with that in mind defeats the purpose of this threshold system, we will be examining this issue very carefully.

These are not the only adjustments we have planned for Open Beta. As mentioned previously, we are looking into increasing the amount of skill points earned when fighting in a party, and we look forward to seeing your input on these changes.

Last of all, I would like to apologize for the delay in releasing a developer's comment due to my recent attendance to Gamescom. The article based on my interview during that trip, coupled with conjecture, outdated information, and some misunderstandings on overseas websites, only added to the confusion. In the future, I hope to avoid similar problems by responding directly through official developer's comments as often as possible. Thank you for your understanding.

See you in the Open Beta Testing!

FINAL FANTASY XIV Director
Nobuaki Komoto

[Siali]

munjahaidate, on Aug 25, 2010 - 10:45 PM, said:

I really don't see the problem with this at all. I think it's admirable that SE are encouraging people to fully experience all aspects of the game. How many times have we seen people bemoaning new MMOs after a couple of months "because there's nothing to do"? Obviously, the main reason that there's nothing to do is that they've taken time off work (work? ooh there's a dirty word!), hammered the game relentlessly 24/7 whilst killing the same group of 24 lizards/bees/artichokes.

Is it so bad that SE are trying to encourage a well rounded experience within their game environment? It's the little things that give an MMO longevity and if players miss the nuances that make any game special in their desire to "get to the end" then so be it. For me SE are considering a bold move and to shape their player base. It must be frustrating for game developers when players don't actually see 2/3 of the game content you've produced. They want you to see the full game, so take that opportunity.

This is pretty much my initial reaction, but after having read many frustrated fans posting about it I do think how they are implementing it pushes the wrong buttons on people's sense of freedom. That's why reward is way better then punishment or barriers.


Generally people do not respond well to negative reinforcement, it was a mistake in FFXI to put many barriers in the way of progression and that was the main problem, SE claims to have understood this but to me it seems they have missed the point by adding this feature in this manner.

I'm all for encouraging casual play, but not at the cost of slamming down other people's way of playing. It's like soloing in FFXI was highly discouraged and made almost impossible for a long time, now they are doing the opposite with hardcore gamers? Maybe not, as pointed out we need to play it in order to really understand it but I foresee a difficult first 3-5 months for FFXIV so far.

EDIT:

It is worth noting, however, that the reduced rate will also gradually recover while players are engaged in activities that do not yield skill/experience points. In this manner, it is possible for the threshold value to reset completely, even before the completion of the one-week timer.


This is a redeeming point!