[Tindiil]

I hope you don't mind this thread Eorzea as I think it will get some attention and opinions. If it is a problem or becomes one just delete it.


The main reason I decided to make this thread is I found some interesting quotes from atheists that really made me think. Personally I am agnostic meaning I don't know what I believe. I base my life purely on logic so there for I must be agnostic at this point. I have seen some seriously weird paranormal things but it still isn't enough to point me in the direction of a religion. If anything is true I believe it to be karma. Anyway heres the quotes for your reading pleasure.


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"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

Thomas Jefferson


"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

Stephen Roberts


"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world."

Richard Dawkins


"An atheist is a man who has no invisible means of support."

John Buchan


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Discuss

[Momotaru]

I wouldn't want to categorize myself at all, but for others sake, I would probably associate myself with agnosticism.
Previously, I would say atheist, as I tend to think most atheists in nature follow science and are open to the idea of new theories where practical sense and new information can be applied.

So I don't believe agnostic and atheist to be very different from each other. But I err on the side of agnostic, not because I'm worried for my soul, but because I don't believe you can close the book on any thought or record. Always be open to consider new possibilities, as there is an endless amount of learning to be done. And I don't believe I'm a hypocrite when I say that it's okay to dismiss most religions because they dismiss the principals of learning I've already discussed, which are integral to having any understanding at all.


'Casual Chat' is an interesting place to put this, because it could quickly explode into something not so casual :p But if calm, we can all keep this under control. Also, I probably won't be posting anymore, as I don't need to convince anyone against their current beliefs, and my opinion is already stated in this post.


I don't want to tell anyone what they should believe in (one should figure that out for oneself), but I highly encourage an open mind to any and all subject matter. Question everything, especially when others suggest otherwise.

Go in peace my friends :)

[Rowan]

Interesting...

Well I don't think that Thomas Jefferson was actually an atheist, but he was definitely a very wise man. I'm not very "religious" myself although I guess it would be based on what your definition of religious is. I am not a church goer because I don't think the concept of giving money to the church and confessing your sins would really make a difference in the eyes of God.

I don't really want to get into any specific religions because I don't want to offend anyone but I do believe that a lot of the practical teachings of many religions are good (e.g. be kind, don't steal, etc., etc.).

I would consider myself agnostic as well and BTW, agnostic means you don't think there is enough evidence to prove there is or isn't a god or gods. Although I would lean towards there being a god because I think this reality is far to complex and is filled with meaning that would seem to be impossible without a creator. But we really have no way to prove it at the moment.

Here are a couple other interesting quotes:

"it is my firm belief that it is a mistake to hold firm beliefs."
-Robert Anton Wilson

“Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.”
-Albert Einstein

"God by all accounts seems to be pro death."
- David F Wallace
:angel:

[Momotaru]

I've since changed my position.

No point dancing around the issue. I'm atheist, and agnosticism is simply a way to be atheist without risking a lashing out from Theists. Rowan, you and I are atheist in the same way toward gods that we are to (and here's the famous example) a Teapot floating around Mars, or the existence of Unicorns, or any other undefinable, unobservable matter of reality. With proper evidence, we're willing to believe in a god or for that matter, anything that has thus far shown no evidence of it's existence.
Until evidence is shown, it's wrong to believe in, or particularly, base one's life or the life of all civilization, around such a thought. At this point, I would have to lie to myself to believe in a god.



My principles haven't changed though. There is only one reality that we all (humans and everything in our universe) share. Reality may be different in other universes, perhaps even the laws of physics themselves, but that's irrelevant to our existence.

Atheism is not a religion, and should not be compared in the same way as organizations like Christianity, Buddhism, etc. Atheism is not an organization, just a simple description for the belief of individuals. The only common trait you may find between any two Atheists is that they don't believe in, or have no reason to believe in an existence of a god, gods, or any mysticism.

If you want to throw me in a group, consider me a free thinker, loyal to science, but always with doubt and having the desire to know the truth about reality, willing to accept that the truth isn't easy to discover and define. We have been, and will continue to be wrong, and all we can do is observe, record, and continue to question.


Though I can be a bit stubborn, I would like to think that I have an open mind enough that one could convince me of anything, given they have a theory supported by some credible evidence. And here's the kicker... Religion often damns a doubtful mind... I say that's all you should have.



I really like those quotes, Rowan.

[Val]

Momotaru, on Apr 6, 2010 - 1:54 PM, said:

I've since changed my position.

No point dancing around the issue. I'm atheist, and agnosticism is simply a way to be atheist without risking a lashing out from Theists. Rowan, you and I are atheist in the same way toward gods that we are to (and here's the famous example) a Teapot floating around Mars, or the existence of Unicorns, or any other undefinable, unobservable matter of reality. With proper evidence, we're willing to believe in a god or for that matter, anything that has thus far shown no evidence of it's existence.
Until evidence is shown, it's wrong to believe in, or particularly, base one's life or the life of all civilization, around such a thought. At this point, I would have to lie to myself to believe in a god.



My principles haven't changed though. There is only one reality that we all (humans and everything in our universe) share. Reality may be different in other universes, perhaps even the laws of physics themselves, but that's irrelevant to our existence.

Atheism is not a religion, and should not be compared in the same way as organizations like Christianity, Buddhism, etc. Atheism is not an organization, just a simple description for the belief of individuals. The only common trait you may find between any two Atheists is that they don't believe in, or have no reason to believe in an existence of a god, gods, or any mysticism.

If you want to throw me in a group, consider me a free thinker, loyal to science, but always with doubt and having the desire to know the truth about reality, willing to accept that the truth isn't easy to discover and define. We have been, and will continue to be wrong, and all we can do is observe, record, and continue to question.


Though I can be a bit stubborn, I would like to think that I have an open mind enough that one could convince me of anything, given they have a theory supported by some credible evidence. And here's the kicker... Religion often damns a doubtful mind... I say that's all you should have.



I really like those quotes, Rowan.

I completely agree with Momo, there isn't much I could really add, I strongly agree with pretty much all he had said.

I am Athiest. I went to a Church of England primary school and was nudged in the direction of religion by my mother, though luckily she didn't try and force it on me.

I've always been a very Negative person, but I don't believe being Athiest is a negative thing. I'm happy with who I am, for the Most part.


I'll prob have more to say after I've slept--- After three days, I think it's safe to say the party is over and time to get some well earned sleep!

[Avonej]

Rowan, on Jul 13, 2009 - 3:18 PM, said:

Interesting...


Well I don't think that Thomas Jefferson was actually an atheist, but he was definitely a very wise man. I'm not very "religious" myself although I guess it would be based on what your definition of religious is. I am not a church goer because I don't think the concept of giving money to the church and confessing your sins would really make a difference in the eyes of God.

I'm not particularly a fan of Thomas Jefferson so I would not go as far as to proclaim him a wise man, however I do not believe he was atheist either. I don't exactly intend to express my beliefs in a forums but I do think that people religious or atheist should do as they feel best helps them in life. That is what it all comes down in my views.

[Cid]

"OMG!
You are all going to hell!
I pray for your sins and I pray that you will accept Jesus Christ into your heart as your Savior!"

....JUST KIDDING!


I used to hear that on a daily basis growing up... not because I was atheist or was a non-Christian, but because I didn't belong to their particular group of Christianity.
It happens time and again, Sunni vs Shiite, Catholic vs Protestant, etc etc. More wars have been fought over religion than anything else. Ever. Period.

It's sad that something meant to promote peace and harmony and love is corrupted into something to fight over, or a vehicle to control people to do your bidding, (George Bush Jr anyone?) and don't even get me started about all the child molesters hiding behind the alter!

There are thousands of religions on this planet and a good percentage of them claim that if you are not a member, you are doomed to damnation. I imagine this is pretty good for recruitment, and that is the basis for, and only reason for such beliefs. (humanity is so manipulative!) Clearly, they are all full of diarrhea because they can't all be right.

Religion aside, I have long questioned what is "correct" and whether or not God exists. One day it occurred to me that on a scientific level, there must be a God, even if it is not a God as we understand it in our story book version of God... follow my logic on this one:

In our (albeit limited) understanding of existence, there is always a beginning and an end of existence. Our Universe came into existence at some point in time. I'm not talking about the "Big Bang"... our universe already existed as a single point before the Big Bang. Regardless of the theory, at some point in time our universe came to be. At that moment, whatever the reason for the inception of our universe, that is "God." Even if a enormous Space Turtle pooped out our universe after eating an enormous space taco, that would make that turtle "God" for all intents and purposes. After all, what is "God" but the Creator? God doesn't have to care about us (or even know about us) to exist. In all religions, God is the one who created the universe and who can deny that the universe was at some time "created?"

Everything else remains in question for me. I am certain, however, that there is a Creator. Whether it be a giant space turtle arbitrarily pooping out universes, or a benevolent omnipotent being who is constantly watching us, or perhaps something in between, I do not know. I think essentially that is the big problem with religions, they all claim to know everything yet none of them agree.

[Momotaru]

(I hope you read all my post haha yes, it's long and maybe exhausting. I'm not bashing your opinion, just running with another theory... So please check it out!)



If there is a creator, what created it? How much time existed before it's decided it wanted to create the universe until the moment it did?


I see this opinion all the time (and once subscribed to this idea myself), really it falls prey to the exact same questions as a universe without a creator. What is it that allows you to believe and be satisfied by the thought that the Universe was created and yet you don't you have the same fervent question for what spawned the creator? At one point does your satisfaction lie?


And if you at all understand evolution (the natural order that takes place over time to living and even none living things) there's absolutely no way the beginning can begin with a creator/god. That defies everything we know about the order of the universe. A god, or creator, would be a complex being... complexity can and has thus far been proven to not exist without some prior, simple level of form and a an extremely long build up to that point. And a theory without evidence is nothing but a leap of faith. Science hasn't failed us yet, and we can continue asking these questions... such as what happened before the big band... These are big questions and theories we've only been able to propose with evidence in the last century or so. Don't so quickly be satisfied with the creator argument when within the next century, what they understand to be fact will blow our minds!


As for there having to be a beginning, there are scientific theories on that. It's not as though science has been dumbfounded. There are many actually, and most of them are right away more probable than a complex being, being responsible.


Here's one that is easy to conceptualize. You know 'The Big Bang', but have you heard of 'The Big Crunch'? Basically, it would be the point where all matter returns to a single point, much in the manner of how we understand the big bang to start as.

So the big bang is an explosion of matter... it spreads out, atoms form from quarks and other basic particles, elements form from atoms, chemicals form from elements, life forms from chemicals and so on.. Complexity rises as matter arranges itself into order. Now, we understand that matter has a tendency to attract to itself.. Gravity is just one of, and actually the weakest of the forces that hold things together.... It's not at all a leap of faith to suggest that eventually, all of matter will be drawn back together.. finally to a single point once again, just as the big bang began.

It's a huge thought, but it makes sense in our reality.. We observe the idea already, with stars that become so massive that they eventually collapse on themselves, forming a black hole. At the heart of blackholes is a point almost infinitely smaller than the original mass of matter necessary to get it started as a blackhole.. Small, but not microscopic. Now imagine, over billions of years, blackholes combine, the forces at work become exponentially stronger. If our sun was massive enough to become a blackhole, it would devour the solar system, and as it devoured, it would grow more massive. Now it would take some time being distant from other systems, but eventually, it seems possible that it would draw in, or be drawn too, even more matter.. it continues to grow. An enormous stretch of time passes, most of the matter in the universe is now within this black hole, at a point so small, so compact, that there isn't even room for the distance to exist between an electron and it's nucleus.. Perhaps at the moment this singularity can not hold up under the laws of reality, it explodes (just as some massive stars have been observed to do) throwing matter out in a huge explosion.. The matter was since broken down into early, or it's earliest components.. If this is starting to sound like a big bang, it's because it very well is or is something much like a big bang... And so the universe begins again.
How many times has the universe exploded and contracted, already? How many ordered universe came into existence, and at what level of complexity, before being recycled to start anew?

So that's one, plausible theory..... And I needed no god, no space turtle, or no anything to explain it. The universe created itself and before it, a million universes may have existed.



One should also contemplate the existence of time, and that perhaps questions such as 'how long before, and what happened before a certain moment' may not be the best questions to ask, as time is directly related to space.. and when space is distorted, time is effected. Perhaps time ceases to exist within a singularity.. in which case, it's almost a useless factor.


Whew!
If you've gained anything from my rant, I hope it's that questions can be answered with reason, a step at a time, rather than blind assumption. I do enjoy the discussion though.

[Cid]

Well this is a good discussion! I'm going to try to respond to your points, Momo, without posting a novel...

Momotaru, on Apr 7, 2010 - 10:01 AM, said:

If there is a creator, what created it?

This is an excellent point. However, "God" as we define it is that which created us "the heavens and the earth" etc bla bla. Therefore, "what created God?", while an excellent question, is irrelevant to this specific quandary. Whatever it is that created the creator is not "God" by the standard religious definition, because religion doesn't think that far ahead or that deeply. While I agree that is a glaring unanswered question, it is not necessary to go beyond identifying that which created us for the purpose of this discussion.

Momotaru, on Apr 7, 2010 - 10:01 AM, said:

What is it that allows you to believe and be satisfied by the thought that the Universe was created and yet you don't you have the same fervent question for what spawned the creator? At one point does your satisfaction lie?

Oh, I'm not satisfied at all. The questions do not end, ever. I'm just saying that there was something that spawned the creation of the universe, and that based on our conceptualization of God, whatever that "something" is could be defined as "God."

Momotaru, on Apr 7, 2010 - 10:01 AM, said:

Don't so quickly be satisfied with the creator argument when within the next century, what they understand to be fact will blow our minds!

As I said above, I'm not satisfied at all. I'm simply saying that "God" as we conceptualize it can be defined in those terms and therefore exists, even if it is not what we expected or imagined. I think discovering that a giant dark matter turtle farted out our universe would blow our minds pretty completely! In that scenario I'm saying that the dark matter turtle would be "God" and a lot of people would be disappointed. Society would immediately redefine "God" as that which created the turtle and we'd be back to square one.

Momotaru, on Apr 7, 2010 - 10:01 AM, said:

As for there having to be a beginning, there are scientific theories on that. It's not as though science has been dumbfounded. There are many actually, and most of them are right away more probable than a complex being, being responsible.

While we have plenty of theories about how our known universe began, science is dumbfounded all the time. Any time you see "infinity" in an equation, that is where science has been dumbfounded. Once our universe was infinite, now our universe is 17.5 billion light years across. But what lies beyond that? Nothing? I bet you there is something...
Again the point I'm trying to make is that I am certain that there is something that exists (yet to be identified) that spawned the creation of our 17.5 billion light year bubble, and that "something" (under current religious definition) would be what we currently conceptualize as "God." Even if it's a giant gassy dark matter turtle

Momotaru, on Apr 7, 2010 - 10:01 AM, said:

You know 'The Big Bang', but have you heard of 'The Big Crunch'?

Yes I know all about the Big Crunch, I didn't convey it clearly, but when I said "I'm not talking about the Big Bang" that includes the Big Crunch... The Bang/Crunch Bang/Crunch cycle is not the same as going into and out of existence... it is not a cycle of beginning and ending because under this scenario, the universe perpetually exists, it is simply changing its state/appearance.

Momotaru, on Apr 7, 2010 - 10:01 AM, said:

How many times has the universe exploded and contracted, already? How many ordered universe came into existence, and at what level of complexity, before being recycled to start anew?

Yes, exactly. However exploding and contracting is not the same as creation and destruction. If you are asking how many times it has happened, you are suggesting that there was a first time. Where did all that matter come from that created the first big bang. Answer that and you will have succesfully identified "God" as we currently define "God" in most major religions today. If you haven't caught on, I'm hoping it was a massive gassy turtle.

Momotaru, on Apr 7, 2010 - 10:01 AM, said:

So that's one, plausible theory..... And I needed no god, no space turtle, or no anything to explain it. The universe created itself and before it, a million universes may have existed.

No, under the theory you describe, the universe is not creating itself. It is just exploding and contracting.

Momotaru, on Apr 7, 2010 - 10:01 AM, said:

If you've gained anything from my rant, I hope it's that questions can be answered with reason, a step at a time, rather than blind assumption.

Well, sometimes reason is busted open by words like "infinity" and "eternity" etc. That being said, I think what I'm trying to communicate is very reasonable if somewhat mind-bending!

[Val]

Quote

Regardless of the theory, at some point in time our universe came to be. At that moment, whatever the reason for the inception of our universe, that is "God." Even if a enormous Space Turtle pooped out our universe after eating an enormous space taco, that would make that turtle "God" for all intents and purposes.

So Cid.. you are saying the creator was a giant turtle that pooped out the universe..?

Now THAT is a religion I can put me faith in!

Oh great Turtle, I offer you many tasty sources of fibre in the hope you poop us out a sister universe!

(I'm not being sarcastic, I genuinly really like the idea xD )

---------





Momo, again i'll have to agree with you.. You truly have a wonderful way with words and I thought it was an enjoyable read xD

There are many theories out there and a good number of those are more plausible than the creator theory; which I personally believe is quite unimaginative and simple theory.



Aswell as how everything started, what are everyones veiws on how ones life will end? -- or more what happens after ones life ends?



I hope this thread remains nice xD We don't want the great pooping turtle getting angry..

This post has been edited by Val: Apr 7, 2010 - 11:29 AM

[Momotaru]

Cid, on Apr 7, 2010 - 11:22 AM, said:

Oh, I'm not satisfied at all. The questions do not end, ever. I'm just saying that there was something that spawned the creation of the universe, and that based on our conceptualization of God, whatever that "something" is could be defined as "God."



As I said above, I'm not satisfied at all. I'm simply saying that "God" as we conceptualize it can be defined in those terms and therefore exists, even if it is not what we expected or imagined. I think discovering that a giant dark matter turtle farted out our universe would blow our minds pretty completely! In that scenario I'm saying that the dark matter turtle would be "God" and a lot of people would be disappointed. Society would immediately redefine "God" as that which created the turtle and we'd be back to square one.




Again the point I'm trying to make is that I am certain that there is something that exists (yet to be identified) that spawned the creation of our 17.5 billion light year bubble, and that "something" (under current religious definition) would be what we currently conceptualize as "God." Even if it's a giant gassy dark matter turtle

Alright, Cid, I see your point now. Most people suggesting a creator just don't get that far.


First, I want to approach your topic of 'god' as whatever created the Universe... Why even do this? I don't care what the uneducated masses will believe.

Ask anyone what they think god is, even within the same religion and you'll get various answers.. But usually, what they're calling god is something that can be defined in another way. Some people just say "God is Love".. "God is Energy" .. "God is Morality" .. "God is whatever created the Universe" ... One can call whatever they want God. It's empty conversation that has no bearing on the reality of the situation.

I can call a pile of socks, God. Where does that get me other than in great disagreement with everyone else? Instead, lets just call it a pile of socks, as we all can observe it is.

If a Giant Turtle took a [expletive] and matter was consequently created, I would say, well that's not God, that's a Giant Turtle.. A Giant Turtle that also can be studied, understood, and has some origin. There is no beginning as far as we are concerned. There might be something beyond us, but it's impossible to conceptualize because our Universe HAS properties. We can only define what we can observe within our Universe.


Reason is only busted open by concepts of infinity and eternity because we aren't familiar with them. We've made some strides in understanding these ideas, and, yes, I say embrace these concepts and go from there when we have any grasp at all.

What we have no grasp on and no reason to believe is that matter was created from nothing (this is not the big bang theory as many creationists believe).. That's why in my example, matter is created from matter. It can not be created or destroyed, a fundamental law of physics.

Quote

While we have plenty of theories about how our known universe began, science is dumbfounded all the time. Any time you see "infinity" in an equation, that is where science has been dumbfounded.

I say Science is not dumbfounded on these matters... Of course we are taking it a baby step at a time.. so we are only dumbfounded about what we can't explain, though we can always begin to theorize ONLY with the experience and understanding we've come to know. That's why declaring god, or a Universe creator is pointless. If I'm not mistaken now, you aren't declaring god as a complex being.. Stop calling it god as I know you yourself don't believe, and let's talk in real terms.

Quote

Yes, exactly. However exploding and contracting is not the same as creation and destruction. If you are asking how many times it has happened, you are suggesting that there was a first time. Where did all that matter come from that created the first big bang. Answer that and you will have succesfully identified "God" as we currently define "God" in most major religions today. If you haven't caught on, I'm hoping it was a massive gassy turtle.

I wouldn't say I suggest that, I just wanted to express that what we think of 'the beginning of the universe' may in fact not be a beginning.

Quote

Once our universe was infinite, now our universe is 17.5 billion light years across. But what lies beyond that? Nothing? I bet you there is something...

Surely, if there is empty space, it would seem that you can keep traveling and eventually be somewhere far beyond your original position.

In some way, that concept has already been broken when humans circumnavigated the globe. It doesn't matter how far we travel, we just can't go any further on this plane of existence.. Is it difficult to believe that Space itself is much like this?

There is a fact that reveals a flaw, or at least a gap in the Big Crunch theory as I stated it... And that is that the Universe is expanding... Not from a simple point, like you'd imagine in a big bang explosion, in which all matter would be blown from a single direction, but rather, expanding from every direction. All galaxies are moving away from each other. To be more clear, from the relative position of each individual galaxy, every other galaxy is moving away.

We don't really know the meaning of this, but it indicates that the Universe... Space itself, is in the form of say, a balloon. Galaxies are all points along that balloon, and when the balloon expands, the points all move away from each other. Therefore, traveling beyond the 'edge of the universe' really doesn't get you anywhere at all. So could you really find anything beyond it?


I don't think that will appease you, either though. You seem deadset on discovering the origin of everything. What created the Universe? (Let's not even talk about the word god, it carries too much baggage) I might say, the Universe is a bubble that expanded off another bubble... which expanded from another bubble.. and so on. Universes spawning from other Universes; The Multiverse theory..
Where the bubbles meet is really the only way you could ever escape our universe.... Is the singularity of a black hole also a hole between universes?

Now, even this concept is largely combated, because there really isn't too much evidence to suggest it. It is based off real evidence though, and is simple enough (reality is always much simpler than we make it, again, simplicity begets complexity) to be plausible... So how can you possibly take even one step further? I certainly assure you should do so, but we can only talk in terms of reality. Your Turtle example is hilarious, but only implies that there is more we are not seeing and is not the beginning of anything.

I think maybe you're just playing with philosophy, because we aren't disagreeing so much as you're insisting a concept... without reason to believe it.


Hehe, I don't often have these kinds of conversations. It's nice to get the gears moving again!





edit:

Quote

Aswell as how everything started, what are everyones veiws on how ones life will end? -- or more what happens after ones life ends?

Sorry for ignoring you Val, that's a question I'm sure Cid will enjoy answering too, and I'll have to answer later tonight when I return home.

[Momotaru]

Val, on Apr 7, 2010 - 11:28 AM, said:

Aswell as how everything started, what are everyones veiws on how ones life will end? -- or more what happens after ones life ends?

This is probably the easiest to answer.
When we die.. We cease living. Kaput. Back to the earth with ye!


That might sound dreadful if you've been hoping for an eternal paradise, but it's neither pleasant, nor painful. It's not something to fear. You should, however, treasure life while you have it.


What we call consciousness is derivative of known parts of the human (and a number of other species') brain.. There is no soul, nor some supernatural presence that keeps us moving.. We are natures machines, just as all other life. All it takes for matter to move is proper order and natural construction.
Believing in some exclusive, human specific afterlife is bigoted and ignorant. If you want an afterlife, consider researching and developing methods to download brain data so consciousness can persist beyond the physical body.. We're no where near doing this, btw, though the first attempts to create all the complexity of a human brain within in computer is supposedly being put forth.. Back on topic...

All life is composed of the same basic materials you can find all around you. Carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, etc... You could write a recipe for the amount of stuff needed to make a man. The difference between us and several pails full of the equivalent elements, is again, that we were built up over long stretches of time and in an incrementally complex way..

My point is, what we'll be dead, is what we are now... We'll just cease automation, our remains will break down to simpler parts and go on to be ingredients in some other matter, perhaps even another life.


I know, it still sounds like a bummer. That's how thankful you should be for living!
.. But on the contrary, it's almost romantic the nature of life and death..

As the late Carl Sagan put it, "We're made of star stuff.. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself". What we're made of is very literally the same matter that was once inside of stars and been around for all of time or eternity.

It's a wondrous idea, and is absolutely true.


Be proud of your life, respect the universe, and help it learn about itself by making personal discoveries and thriving on curiosity.

[Cid]

Momotaru, on Apr 7, 2010 - 2:00 PM, said:

First, I want to approach your topic of 'god' as whatever created the Universe... Why even do this? I don't care what the uneducated masses will believe.

Well I care... unfortunately I have to deal with the "uneducated masses" on a daily basis. It makes life more tolerable if I can find some way to get on the same page, even if I have to bend my brain to do it.

Momotaru, on Apr 7, 2010 - 2:00 PM, said:

Ask anyone what they think god is, even within the same religion and you'll get various answers.. But usually, what they're calling god is something that can be defined in another way. Some people just say "God is Love".. "God is Energy" .. "God is Morality" .. "God is whatever created the Universe" ... One can call whatever they want God. It's empty conversation that has no bearing on the reality of the situation.

Well that one is the common thread, so that's what I try to identify with. Some people say God is love etc, but the general consensus, regardless of whatever other view of God that people have, is that God created the universe.

Momotaru, on Apr 7, 2010 - 2:00 PM, said:

What we have no grasp on and no reason to believe is that matter was created from nothing (this is not the big bang theory as many creationists believe).. That's why in my example, matter is created from matter. It can not be created or destroyed, a fundamental law of physics.

Well laws are made to be broken . I can give you at least one reason to consider the possibility that matter was created from nothing: If it was not, then it has existed "eternally" ... (which IMO eternity is just as abstract a concept as God is) One could argue that eternity is against the laws of physics as well.

Momotaru, on Apr 7, 2010 - 2:00 PM, said:

In some way, that concept has already been broken when humans circumnavigated the globe. It doesn't matter how far we travel, we just can't go any further on this plane of existence.. Is it difficult to believe that Space itself is much like this?

Well that was true until we discovered space travel. While I can imagine space as a limited plane, it begs the question, what is beyond? Just like we circumnavigated our planet, and then said "hmmm, but what if we travel upwards?" I think the same concept would apply to space. There will always be a next "beyond."

Momotaru, on Apr 7, 2010 - 2:00 PM, said:

We don't really know the meaning of this, but it indicates that the Universe... Space itself, is in the form of say, a balloon.

Yup, which supports the big bang theory... which in my mind begs the question, "Is there another balloon beyond ours?"

Momotaru, on Apr 7, 2010 - 2:00 PM, said:

Where the bubbles meet is really the only way you could ever escape our universe.... Is the singularity of a black hole also a hole between universes?

That's one theory, the good old multiverse theory... a black whole is like a "drain" where all the water is going down the tubes and spilling out somewhere else (another universe). Could be, maybe not, we still have a lot to learn about black holes!

Momotaru, on Apr 7, 2010 - 2:00 PM, said:

Your Turtle example is hilarious, but only implies that there is more we are not seeing and is not the beginning of anything.

Yeah pretty much... I fear there will always be "more we are not seeing." I have a hard time imagining the day when we officially know everything there is to know about everything.

Momotaru, on Apr 7, 2010 - 2:00 PM, said:

I think maybe you're just playing with philosophy, because we aren't disagreeing so much as you're insisting a concept... without reason to believe it.

yessir! Aren't concepts fun?!?

[Cid]

Val, on Apr 7, 2010 - 11:28 AM, said:

So Cid.. you are saying the creator was a giant turtle that pooped out the universe..?

Now THAT is a religion I can put me faith in!

Oh great Turtle, I offer you many tasty sources of fibre in the hope you poop us out a sister universe!

(I'm not being sarcastic, I genuinly really like the idea xD )

Yes. Yesterday the Turtle spoke to me. He said we should launch a deep space probe full of laxatives because he has been having some trouble working on our sister universe. hehehe

Wouldn't life be simpler? I have heard many a creation story that is far sillier than that one!

Val, on Apr 7, 2010 - 11:28 AM, said:

Aswell as how everything started, what are everyones veiws on how ones life will end? -- or more what happens after ones life ends?

Hmm... I don't really have many ideas on this one.
I can say that to a certain extent we will be resurrected. Momo alluded to it in his post.

Scientifically speaking our bodies will break down over time and be recycled. We will be absorbed by the environment, whether you are picked away by crabs on the bottom of the ocean, or eaten by worms in the earth, or evaporated by fire... one way or another your body is broken down and distributed back into the system. In that sense, we will live on. Who knows, maybe on some sub-atomic level we will leave our signature or some sort of impression everywhere that we are "absorbed" back into nature.


As for whether we have a "spirit" and what happens to it when we die... I'm on the fence. What do you think?

[Val]

This Turtle needs a day where we can celebrate it's greatness!




Yet again, I have to agree with Momo.. Since I was young I've always thought that when life ends~ it ends. I've never been able to find comfort in the phase "He's in a better place now" as that has the opposite effect on me...


I might have spoken about ghosts in another thread, but I don't really believe in them.. Or rather; I don't believe they are the spirits left behind by the deceased... but that can be discussed in the Ghosts thread...

But yeah, I think that there is so form of after life or second chance. I think this is our only chance at life and we should enjoy it while we can before we expire






Does anyone else have any veiws on were we come from or where we go after death?



Though, what ever your veiws are, they will be wrong as the all came from, and will eventually return to, The Great Pooping Turtle In The Sky! [T.G.P.T.I.T.S.]